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The post is no more silly than the logic, of a player being offered a wage of 42225 but wants 42227 and refuses to lower his wage. If that is not just silly, then I don’t know how could I ever explain it.
It is not me not being able to afford his “high” demands, it is flaw in logic, as I see it. Anyone with two peas as brain would gladly take 2 dollars wage drop in order to keep getting almost same money (while being 3 years older since he last agreed to the 2 dollar higher wage).
I am trying to highlight areas in the game which need improvement, please do not confuse me for the majority of people who complain over their misfortune to have lost all their money, lost a game which clearly they should have won, why their youth is not improving as other’s and so on.
If you have truly understood my issue with this then you’d understand that this is a flaw in logic. No one with brain substance would argue about 2 dollars and risk losing 40k+ check every wage period, no?
Sure, with the way the economy works, the player would not be renewing, become a free agent and probably land a 60k wages, but that is not the issue. If we are going to play the game by the rules of the game world and ignore the real life values and logic, then nothing is broken, it is even perfect because the logic says, the player is aware of the economy in the game world and “knows” that once he is a free agent, he will land a higher salary. Actually then he should/would even ask for a higher salary, if he really knows his value and it’s a “principle” thing.
BUT I doubt it is so. I am guessing it’s simply a formula that needs to be fine-tuned, in my opinion of course.
/BK
I understand both views, I’ll try to add clarifications to the help without spoiling anything. For now, quick Q & A:
Q: Does this mean A0 is about 14 squares from the goal?
A: Roughly speaking, yes
Q: Easy → Lower chance on a succesful tackle, lower chance on a foul, higher chance on a failed tackle.
Normal → Default
Hard → Higher chance on a succesful tackle, higher chance on a foul, lower chance on a failed tackle.
A: Yes
Q: Does the last sentence say that defenders pass more frequently than midfielders? If so, why is it mentioned here and not in the description of passing skills?
A: Yes, because intuitively a defender wants to clear the ball from his field.
Q: In real life, the longer the pass, the higher the chance it fails. I suppose it’s the same in RS?
A: Yes
Q: Is pass accuracy just influenced by passing or also by tackling skill of the opponent?
A: Tackling has no influence on passing. The ball may bounce or be intercepted by a player in the middle of the way (if it was not a “high pass”). The chance of the intercepting player controlling the ball or have it close to him depends on its control skills.
Q: And in long range, someone playing DR, does he have the same chance passing to DL/ML and AR or would he prefer AR?
A: It has the same chance as long as the players are within range
Q: L and R are wingers, C is a central player. Do RC and LC also counts as central? Or would ‘Along sides’ means RC/LC will get more passes than C?
A: RC/LC will get more passes than C
Q: He will always shoot, even when there are a lot of defenders blocking the shot?
A: Not necessarily, the player may be smart enough to find a better position
Q: I suppose the further away, the more chance of failing (shooting)?
A: Yes
@ sly thats why i dont lower my prices for anyone now.
im playing the game as everyone else is now
They should acept sure, but to give them that intelligence would probably take good time from other improvements. I dont think this is so important as that… As Sly said, if they should lower 2 dollars, why shouldn’t you? :D
sorry dude, but yes it’s stupid to try this. Why bother over 2 dollars? Sorry but I find this to be a silly post. I’m sure you got plenty left in your budget. Besides, as a person you have to draw the line somewhere :)….and make a point! It’s the players right to refuse your offer, even if it’s just 2 dollars….
I recall in the early day’s having a player listed for 70 mill. I made a deal with another manager. This was alot of money 60 seasons ago. I had a guy offering 69 mill, and he said “I never offer the full amount for players on TL”. Now I know, what’s 1 mill more or less, but I made it a matter if principle. The deal was 70 and not 69. So I told him “there is a first time for everything”. I refused to lower it for 1 mill since I just thought it was very silly from his side. Don’t be cheap and offer that 1 extra mill. I’m the one selling….you WANT MY PLAYER. So like I said, there was a principle involved….
So let me just say, I know exactly how your player must feel :)
Come on, it’s silly a player refusing a wage that is 2 dollars less than the proposed/wanted wage?!
Please fix this, it shouldn’t take too many minutes.
/BK
ps. just in case you do not understand what I mean, when negotiating wages, player will not accept anything less than exactly what they want. Right now I am haggling over 2 dollars. One could say I am stupid to try but it’s just so silly they won’t accept a wage 2 dollars less of what they want, specially if we are talking about a wage around 42225 offered vs 42227 wanted. What is the logic there?
Well said Filipe. I meen, I guess I complain as much about random results as the next guy, but over the course of a season usually it all evens out. Sometimes you outplay someone and later on it’s visa versa. Like Vaughn said, if it was all random you wouldn’t see the same Managers create great teams and win prizes over and over…..
If you only observe one match the random.factor.is important, if you observe 100 the randomness is lost. And your conclusions are much stronger.
Just an observation, its the first time i read this descriptions Dimitri posted. Yet, not one is new to me… Useful for new managers sure, but you figure that anyway, they are logical and based in the most simple soccer knoladge.
Your Barcelona argument Works against you Dimitri, by that logic there would Be no chance for.smaller teams to beat stonger ones. That Said we would calculate wich team had the best players.and give them the title, no need to play the matches. A better understanding of the game and using of that knowladge is what makes possible to weaker teams to compete.with richer ones.
Ps: sorry for the bad writting and pontuation. Not used to.this smartphones keyboard
You can almost throw away the random factor if they have proven themselfs over and over again to be a good manager.
And you don’t think that the results from your experiments could have been explained by the random factor?
I agree with Rui on this one. Gabriel already explained to much about the game. I think the rest should just be kept a secret and you should figure it out for yourself. I learned everything I know just by experimenting and writing stuff down. This took time, effort and dedication. Now I woulf find it unfair if all this “work” I did was for nothing if all of a suddeon Gabriel just simply explains all the game’s ‘secrets’.
http://www.rubysoccer.com/mediawiki/index.php/Formations
“The match field on RubySoccer is 81×45 “squares”. "
Does this mean A0 is about 14 squares from the goal? This is important for shooting distance.
“Tackling Intensity: the intensity of your players tackles influence how often their tackles will be successful but also how often they will commit fouls”
This just says there is an influence, but not what the influence is. I guess:
Easy → Lower chance on a succesful tackle, lower chance on a foul, higher chance on a failed tackle.
Normal → Default
Hard → Higher chance on a succesful tackle, higher chance on a foul, lower chance on a failed tackle.
“Passing Frequency: players decision to pass the ball or run with it is influenced by this tactic. There is no way to tell the exact probability as there are other factors in place, but in rough number we have 30% chance of passing if you choose “rare”, 50% if you choose “normal” and 70% if you choose “often”. Defenders tend to pass more frequently while attackers and wingers less frequently."
Does the last sentence say that defenders pass more frequently than midfielders? If so, why is it mentioned here and not in the description of passing skills?
“Passing Style: “short” means your players will look for teammates within a 20 “squares” range when passing the ball, if you choose “medium” the range is 35, and “long” range is 50."
In real life, the longer the pass, the higher the chance it fails. I suppose it’s the same in RS? Is pass accuracy just influenced by passing or also by tackling skill of the opponent? And in long range, someone playing DR, does he have the same chance passing to DL/ML and AR or would he prefer AR?
“Passing Priority: picking a “mixed” strategy will give you a 50% chance of passing to wingers and 50% to passing to central players, supposing both are within passing range. Choosing “along sides” will raise the chance of passing to a winger to 70%, while “center” reduces this probability to 30%."
L and R are wingers, C is a central player. Do RC and LC also counts as central? Or would ‘Along sides’ means RC/LC will get more passes than C?
“Shooting Distance: “short” range is 10 “squares”, “medium” is 15 “squares” and “long” is 20 “squares”. Whenever a players has the ball and is within this strategy’s range he will shoot. The only exception is for headers, for which the range is always 10."
He will always shoot, even when there are a lot of defenders blocking the shot? I suppose the further away, the more chance of failing?
Rui, why would it suck? Imagine that in real life Sunderland uses the same tactics as Barcelona, would they suddenly start to win much more? No, cause they have different players. And I don’t think that in RS copying the formation/tactics of whichever team won the world cup will be likely more succesful than copying the formation/tactics of the bottom team. You should play in whatever works for your players. But to try to solve the puzzle, it should be clear what the numbers of your players mean, imo.
Gabriel, yes, a clearer description like that would help. I talked about skills, but also the descriptions of formations is unclear, I will explain that in the next posting.
with all the respect Dimitri, this topic as no logic at all, in my point of view. there isn’t any strategy football game that explains 100% how it works. that would be too boring.
if everyone start playing with the same “principles”, it would suck. there are already managers copying tactics from others, so now you want that everyone play according to the same pattern?
i played SS/MS for years, i now play RS for 6 years and i still didn’t figure out 100% how it works, i’m still learning and i would like to keep it that way. the day i figured out everything, as you suggest, i would just quit. cause it would lost all the fun.
i think Gabriel and Danilo already explained more then they should…
and yes, we have to experiment…
Dont see the need to do that, everyone knows what the skills are and intuitively can figure how the game uses them…
Dimitri of course a 85 avg can be better than a 87, if he has the right skills for the right position… How you can know that? No one besides the developers really know it completely but I can guess… Defenders probably dont need so much shooting, or control… Mids probably dont need that much heading… Strikers dont need that much tackle or passing… I use this in my teams (with some few exceptions) and it works pretty fine usually.
Davison, not that anyone cares much for what you say but, again, completely wrong… Just because you dont understand what, they do mean something, they are the only thing that means something when choosing players
Well, excluding goalkeepers and the keeping atrributte, all other positions use all attribute depending on what the player is doing during the match. I think we can add more to the wiki for each skill, but there is not much more to add really. What we can do is be a little more specific about when each skill is used, something like “tackle is used to determine if the player was successful when trying to take the ball for an opponent” or
“passing is used when the player tries to pass the ball, make a cross, take a corner or throw-in to determine how accurate he was in the attempt”, but anything else would require revealing formulas, probabilities and other details of the match engine.
The likelihood of a player in a position using a particular skill really depends on how often he performs whatever action requires that skill. For example, defenders are less likely to use the shooting skill because they’re usually far from the goal. The example you gave about a player on A -1 using tackling more than on A 0 is intuitively true because A -1 exposes the player more to the mid sector of the field than A 0, so he’ll probably have more opportunities to tackle the opponents.
Does it make sense? Is there any particular point you think I’m missing or you just would like to see things like what I’ve just explained added to the Wiki?
YES attributes should mean something. seems they dont mean shit right now i brought this up years ago
There is a big flaw in the game. At least in my opinion, though I have noticed it’s not a popular discussion subject. But I can explain it.
This game is all about numbers. Managers try to build a team with good players, and numbers are used to decide on how good a player is. But what do the numbers say? Is a 90 keeping 20 shooting keeper better than a 89 keeping 30 shooting keeper, all things being equal? Yes it is, according to the guide: “Shooting: ability to shoot; not used by goalkeepers” Well, that helps. But how important are the different stats for other positions? That is unclear. A 85 avg player can be better than a 87 avg player, but when is that the case? Are main skills (tackling for defenders for example) more important then secondary skills, or not? I guess a lot of people would like to know, still http://www.rubysoccer.com/mediawiki/index.php/Players_Skills give limited info. Why not add more information there?
The admins have said something about it before. It is afaik an official policy not to tell everything they could tell. Why is this? One could argue “by not telling some things, we give managers a chance to find out those things for themselves.” However, there is no – scientifically valid – way to find out. One would have to experiment with all things being equal, or with a lot of data input, and this is not possible, and even then, it’s not so clear how to interpret the data. So I don’t think this is a good reason. Another reason for the policy could be that it’s more fun if you don’t know everything. I think though that a game in general is more fun if you understand it better. It’s better if you know that your actions make sense, than that if you know that you might as well use a coin flip to make decisions.
A more or less valid reason for not explaining more about the skills is that it’s difficult to explain. All players use all skills, it depends on the situation what skill is being used. There’s no golden formula to really value how good a player is. I can understand that. But I’m sure there is more to say then the wiki currently says. For example, I think I’ve seen mentioned that a player on A -1 uses tackling more than on A 0. If this is the case, why is it not in the guide? I also can make an educated guess that heading is being used more on AC than on MR/ML, so the value of heading depends on the position. Would it really hurt to add to the wiki on which positions heading is the most and the less important? To explain passing distance, when you should use short, when long, etc? I thihk not, on the contrary.
So sum up, more information/knowledge is more fun in my opinion. Improving the help/wiki is the best way in making the game better.
Another group of young promises transfer listed, check it:
http://www.rubysoccer.com/game/team_players/176
1) Seems nice, maybe another line in the Investments page to allow managers to choose how much they want to save next season… That probably would make you change how the budget is calculated too…
3) It doesn’t need to make the game more frustrating, level 0 phisio this days gives you mostly no worries, you should have that only at level 6 or 7… One season test is too short, managers need to know how bad things get with the harder sistem and addapt the phisio levels, that requires much more time…
4) A more complex wage negotiation should be discussed, if we have players asking higher wages because they are main squad, or they have inferior players being better payed in the team, or if you have a level 10 budget, and some other variables… This would make wages rise and make people pay more attention to it, and more importance to the wage limit consequently…
Anyhow, nice to know you have things open to changes Gabriel :D
Thanks for the feedback, Dimitri. Here are my comments:
1) That’s a good starting point to improve the current situation. Of course we may have to revise the current transfer budget formula and analyse the impact.
2) I’m currently working on that (not as fast as I’d like due to business trips, but still…)
3) That was the next thing on my list after improving the scouting department. Still haven’t decided the best course of action but it definitely relates to injuries and stamina!
4) When I first came up with the formulas for wages and budgets I was sure they would have to be revisited at some point. I think I should also mention that the levels doesn’t mean the same thing for all teams, the same level for smaller teams would mean a smaller wage limit when compared to big teams. My lack of definition of what makes a team big is on purpose ;-)
Good feedback everyone. I understand the budget as we have now is not really a budget because we create money out of thin air, but it was just a new idea to start with in this new system. We will consider the options already presented among other things in order to improve this situation. Hold on tight! ;-)
I am still no fan of the points system, but apart from that, there are a few things that can easily be improved.
1) The transfer money. As mentioned by a lot of people, if you lose all your money at the end of the season, why would you sell players? My suggestion is that 50% of your money is transfered to the next season as money, the other 50% as points.
2) Scouting needs to be improved, but I understand this will be implemented shortly.
3) Physio should be more important too. The easy solution is to have more (or more severe) injuries, for example double the amount/chance. The question is: does this make the game more fun, or more frustrating (no one likes to have injured players)? Not sure about this, I suggest just to test one season how it works out. Another idea is to have physio influence stamina. For example: level 1 gives 1% chance of an extra point of stamina for each player not playing, level 10 10% (if that seems low: it’s about 6-8 points during a season)
(also I don’t think you should get messages about it, just see it in the player screen as you see improved stats)
4) Wages. For me:
Wage Limit: $870,980
Current Wage Total: $679,523
I have wages at 2, could have done it at 1 too, but that would have given me (I think) 2 extra points?
I checked another team (Feyenoord), about 800k in wages, probably also wage limit at level 2. So I have 15% lower wages, should that not be worth 10 points or so? I have the feeling it’s not balanced yet. Maybe 5 points for every level, starting from 600k?
Rui (and others), the changes are really good, just think about it. You can not build up 1-2Billions and buy 8 superstars per season.
The only flaw with this thing now is people have NO reason to sell if they are going to lose the money at the end of the season. If we can solve that puzzle so people will actually want to sell the players to create other opportunities, then the economy system will be really good.
I’ve called it faulty but it is actually really good, it prevents a lot of cheating, the transfers now make more sense, so again only problem is people not selling because of the money have little meaning if you can not reinvest it before they are gone. I think my suggestions earlier could be possible solutions but we should think this really carefully.
Also and again there is still too much money in the system, removing a zero from everything besides the wages would be more realistic.
/BK
Fillipe, board do make deals in certain clubs in real life as well, so it’s really a decision of game being realistic or not.
In SS you had the BIG Club clause, but that is not the best way to do things.
At this point, big club clause or whatever, something really has to be done, the budget mechanism is faulty by design. Either do it as real budgeting or do something else. Again, for me If I never made another deal for 20 seasons I’d be fine, but for the sake of game being better, this has to be re-considered.
/BK
Rui,
The inflation means money being worth lot less than it used to be, it is already here because people won’t buy or sell the players for any money unless they know they get REALLY high offers and have to make sure they can spend it on same season. So it’s already here in a way.
/BK
Berhan quote: “Rui, it’s not about the amount but more about the principle of how things work.” – that’s what i’ve been saying since the new changes…
Berhan quote: “otherwise you are creating money from thin air (like the American Federal Reserve)” – lol. that’s exactly what happens in RS at the moment
Berhan quote: “you can be absolutely sure that inflation will come!!” – of course it won’t come. at the start of the new season money is gone.
this new system is very unfair: if you sell players, you loose the money at the end of the season; if you buy players, you will have more money to spend when the next season starts.
I’m still not ok with your “Board making deals” thing, but I agree your budget system sounds better than what we have now. It’s more realistic and probably more market friendly than this.
The inflaction argument is wrong though, the sistem we have makes it mostly impossible to have inflaction over a certain level, simply because teams cannot amount that much money in just one season. Even so I’ve seen some 500 and 700M deals already :D
A quick solution could be that whatever money you are able to save through this is stored in a different account/variable, and used for something else, like really doing the mega-big transfers managers couldn’t stop because the clubs decide to overrule managers decision.
it could be used as “shield” factor for club "protecting their player, or “attack” factor of a club trying to get a desired player even if manager doesn’t want to sell the player.
This one is leaning towards my earlier suggestions of being able to buy any player.
Anyway, just some thoughts, and whatever the solution of this, it has to be better than the way it is.
Also this thing effects everyone so it’s FAIR in that perspective, no need to cry about it. I just wanted to make you aware of this.
/BK
Rui, it’s not about the amount but more about the principle of how things work.
Guys, budgets do not work like that, you have to re-think, I am not sure what kind of points I got for those 600M, didn’t pay attention really.
One important point I think about using budgets is to separate the club general funds from the transfer budget.
At the end the budget amount has to be the BASE for calculating new budget depending on levels of:
- Transfer Budget
- Money from players sold added to transfer budget AND
- Money left in YOUR TRANSFER BUDGET, otherwise you are creating money from thin air (like the American Federal Reserve) and then you can be absolutely sure that inflation will come!!
The reason you are not seeing the inflation is because people are not selling their best players because money has lost it’s meaning, fair enough, it can be solved but the way you did it – it does two things:
- creates money out of nothing (inflation will come, wait and see)
- acts as a show stopper to accumulate vast amounts of funds for budget so huge deals can never be made. Stops the big deals at the moment but it will not later on. This has scaled the previous scenarios with huge cash in the clubs to last only one season and whatever happens during that season (deals /buys /sales) it’s only in that window of opportunity. It’s like having transfer windows, only with budgets rather than time windows.
It works for stopping cheating (for a while), and making huge deals, cheating will require some work etc.. But it also prevents the game from working better.
Again, please think again.
1) Transfer budget is to be a percentage of total club funds (not a fantasy number). Stored in an own variable/account.
2) When Club gets XX% of transfers and leaves YY% of transfers in the transfer budget (same season) THAT (and whatever is left in your transfer budget for this season) is to be the base for the next seasons BUDGET suggestion, not a fantasy number or you’ll get inflation soon.
3) When at start of season you decide not to use much transfer funds, that money is to be put back to the Transfer account of the club and to be the base for next season’s transfer budget and again , what’s left in your current season transfer budget.
I think this is so natural to do so never paid attention to this earlier.
You have to take a look at how budgets work really. You have done something else, that is not budgeting, it’s like starting a new mission / level in a game where you get this and that to achieve this and that. Totally different thing than one would expect here, no?
/BK