Posts that Paulo Marzionna is monitoring

Topic: Is anyone (like me) worried that..

Paulo, that was never a problem in ManagerSim, having too many computer managed clubs. Some countries were locked from getting human managers but still the mechanics behind the economy were better.

When reading your and Filipe’s comments I get the feeling of “Catch-22” over that kind of suggestions/logic, because in order to get more managers you need to have a “better game” and in order to make the game better you need to get more managers.

Make no mistake, if you have a great game, people will hear about it and get there. Of course you can aid by marketing, sometimes quite costly thing but on the other hand when the product is great, people will tell others about it.

To FIX the wrong logic all you need is correcting the formulas, code and so on, with or without more managers you need to handle the logic behind. Now the situation is perfect to learn from. We now know what to expect when there are not so many managers and many (80%+) CPU teams, ie how the economy works. What we can do is learn and adapt. When the scenario is reversed, and most of the clubs are managed by real managers then I am sure we’ll have other problems and the world will not be as perfect as you mean. Then we need to adapt again. It’s a learning and adapting process. Get that.

BK

Topic: Is anyone (like me) worried that..

ya, it definitely looks like interest is waning for this game… its a shame really, but without anyone working full time on it, it’s tough to get any traction on implementing new ideas and such.

Topic: Is anyone (like me) worried that..

Charles, I am not talking about hiding the player value, player value can still exist but it would be calculated differently, also all the extra money have to be removed to, I am guessing but I think there are many clubs with more than couple of hundred millions, it’s very strange thing.

About managers leaving the game, I can not speak for Danilo and Gabriel but if it was my game and if I had to make a decision about quitting now or in a year, I’d say now, as there is no point of prolonging the “pain”.
A new dimension to implement things maybe is the answer but it all depends on where the game is going. There are far more worse games out there who charge you for money in some way, so manager leaving or coming is a marketing thing really. You can not keep making implementations to keep managers happy. At the same time, since I’ve been in in their (the developers) place I know it’s not easy to say no as the game grows it becomes “everyone” somehow. Still someone makes the decisions about what to be done or not.
Some say the managers would quit if the game is reset, and I could say that some will quit if the current situation continues but what do I know, right?

Just look at how many views this thread has and how many people wrote here, it is really sad to see.

/BK

Topic: Is anyone (like me) worried that..

you are correct, thats why i think perhaps creating a 3rd world would help. But again, it all depends on what admins have in mind for the game…

Topic: Is anyone (like me) worried that..

I think that if the game is reset, you will probably end up seeing less human players. I imagine many people would be very frustrated about that and just quit. Many seasons building up their teams, and suddenly they have no team anymore..

Topic: Is anyone (like me) worried that..

I don’t think removing the player value will have much effect until we see more human managers. Even if you remove player value, the CPU will still know the players hidden value (assuming you just “hide” the player value not removing it) so the CPU teams will continue spending the money they are currently spending. In the end, the market is inflated, but unfortunately, unless you reset the game world there isn’t much to be done with it. Changes have been made over the years which still might be affecting the games current economy, however, unless we reset the game worlds, or create a 3rd world so we can start testing and implementing new features, it’ll be tough to see the exact results…

as i said before, the game is still enjoyable, but further tweaking is needed to advance the game. Suggestions already posted here such as adding more clauses to contracts and such can definitely help make the game more dynamic.

Topic: Is anyone (like me) worried that..

yes you are new, let’s see if you are as happy as now in a few more seasons. :)

The task of implementing better logics for the cpu teams should not be really that hard, as the cpu teams “know” who the potential great players are and then they could make bids on those players first before trying to buy the 34 old guys.

/BK

Topic: Is anyone (like me) worried that..

Listen, I’m new here, but I think people are being really pessimistic here. The game looks fine to me! In many aspects it is very realistic actually. For instance, the slow development of players. Starting at 16 and reaching their peak at around 25 is really good. Then dropping after 31.. I think that feature is very good!

I understand many people are questioning the transfer market. The economics of the game can get complicated indeed, but I couldn’t comment much without knowing how much money in the bank the CPU teams have at the moment. One thing that seems wrong to me is that CPU teams appear to be spending too much money buying old players. They can pay high prices for 34yo players, which doesn’t look right. But I imagine it must be quite hard to program the CPU teams to actually play the game as a human. We can’t really demand perfect AI. I think the fact that the game has been going on for so many seasons without huge problems is quite an accomplishment.

Topic: Is anyone (like me) worried that..

Yepp, when developing a game you have to ignore some of the “advice” and take some or simply do some trial and error, and most importantly learn what works and what not.

That’s why I mean if we (others than the developers) really want to help developing the best game after SoccerSim leaving a void in that category, we need to find out what works and what not. That’s why we do not need to pay attention to who moans about result and transfers by cpu teams but adapt and change code, test and change, test and change some more.

In real world you have a development team and you have the test team, they both work by the requirements someone made.
Never can a testing team make change requests. You need to set a requirement team to make sure you do not have insane requirements, developers sticking to that requirements and then testers testing if the implementations mirror the required features.

Why is THIS different here? Reset the game already..

BK

Topic: Is anyone (like me) worried that..

The CPU crazy buyers was a mistake, it was easy to see this would happen and I believe the only reason this was done was because the pressure some managers putted on the developers, bad managers that continue to perform badly… In the end money worth less, you can’t find as good players in the transfer market, its harder to build a new team unless you can be online every 3 turns (because CPU are).

As I said before the only real solution for the game’s health is having more human managers playing, all the investment in the game should be for that purpose…

Cheers

Topic: Is anyone (like me) worried that..

Dimitri, we can have a chat/voice session and discuss, but it’s really alarming that there is not much more voices in here throwing theories and opinions.

To answer you quickly, all cpu team’s actions should be scripted and pre-calculated. “They” have an advantage over us, knowing the potential of a player and, if the transfer amounts are around 80M for a great player and they can afford it, and know that guy will become a greater and more valuable for the team than a 8M player, then they can go for him, else try to meet the requirements from the board, such as, stay in the division, title challenge, etc. On the other hand they could offer only what they think player is supposed to be worth, and that kind of levels can be added to a table in the database saying:
player with average 85 is 10-15M worth of value, 90 average is 15-25M, 95 is 25-40M, depending on:
- number of games at the highest level (country (where the player played) ranking in effect here)
- number of national games
- age (actually how many more productive years normally left, if player is not forced to quit/retire)
- stardom, like in Soccersim, silver stars and gold stars added value to player, added effect to merchandise

now, the money in the clubs have to be balanced and the formulas for generating money/costs have to be really closely monitored.

Now, if we had many human managers you wouldn’t need to script the actions of the CPU teams, the actions/transactions/fun would happen anyway. We have many cpu teams and we need to balance things or not at all, depends on what kind of game you want.

I guess there is not a quick and easy answer Dimitri.

/BK

Topic: Is anyone (like me) worried that..

Ok, let’s suppose we remove player value. A cpu team needs a MR. There is one on the market for 80M. Should the cpu team buy the player?

Topic: Is anyone (like me) worried that..

Dimitri, as I have been saying for years, player value is an evil thing to attach to a player. At least, it should be calculated in a different way.
When you base offers/transfer price on “player value” you make a way open for crazy things like you see happen in the game, crazy amounts of money paid by CPU teams, no “decent players” to buy unless offered crazy amounts of money. Cheaters will have easier to do “legit” transfers, pointing to the player value.

Some players have a value of 200-500 M, perfect for cheating and shuffling money around and very crazy at the same time.

All the logic that has been based on any calculation of the player value is very hard to do or dismiss. It’s not an easy task but if this is a real beta testing of the game then we should be open to changes really. I would have no problems dealing with players without any value attribute attached. I wouldn’t mind losing 90% of the money in the club, no use of having 300M anyway when no one is selling.

BK

Topic: Is anyone (like me) worried that..

The player value is based on actual transfers, right? But the cpu teams are paying twice or more the player value. Which means player values go up. Which means cpu teams will pay even higher prices, etc.

I still don’t understand why it isn’t possible to have a middle way between cpu teams hardly buying players, and cpu teams spending too much money…

Topic: Is anyone (like me) worried that..

contract clauses is a really good idea but there will be some good players on the free market and managers will offer incredible wages to have these players…

one more idea: for now when you sign a player this is for ever. Imagine if you sign a player for x years and after these years, he has the choice to resign and get free to sign for a better team. If a player do not want a new contract the manager will have to sell him at a “good” price. The market will be more liquid. And some excelent players will not be playing in Columbian 2nd division…

Topic: Is anyone (like me) worried that..

Some suggestions:
a)I agree with the idea of putting contract clauses (example: relegation release clause; minimun mumber of official games).
b)The estimated value of the players should not be so inflated. There was a recent inflation in the estimated value of the players in Medium Ticker. In my opinion, before this the estimated value was acceptable.
c)The board of the club that is buying should block transfers amounts above 2 or 3 times the estimated value.
d)CPU teams: should not spend more then half (or 1/3) of their bank balance in one single transfer.
e)I don’t agree with the “reset” in the finance of the clubs (remove the last 0)

DE

Topic: Is anyone (like me) worried that..

Dimitri, in my opinion, No, the player value attribute kills the game, it would be interesting to see how people would rate/value players if it was to be removed. I agree there should be some kind of value to represent the “value” of the player but it could be one of two things:
a) the transfer price of the players last transfer OR when missing (as the player could be a “home grown” player)
b) a valuation of your board/club/assistant manager or something like that. Something like:
“Noé Delage is valued somewhere between 3-5M.” in stead of “$44,073,674”

It’s too late with just stopping the cpu teams from spending the money, as many clubs now have several hundreds of millions.
I think most fair thing would be to remove the last 0 from each value in the game.
Meaning if you had 300M in the club account it should now hold 30M and if a player was worth 150M, it will now be 15M. That would temporarily “help” but a more aggressive approach is needed. Logic has to prevent this from happening and a suggestion of players having attitude would help. Also in most management games you have a max skill for each skill. That has to be redone. And I would “lose” about 250M myself but it’s worth it, as this is beta-testing, no?!

In reality we have many great players but that is known from a SET of 265M people playing football/soccer. It’s not too difficult to find 100 great players for several countries, but percentage of great players in the game from the number of available players is WAY TOO BIG. Not good. It creates an unnatural balance of talent, and when the cpu teams can afford a promising player they will make a move to get him. That is a great feature.

Developers (and/or anyone interested in data statistics of football, read this:
http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/fifafacts/bcoffsurv/emaga_9384_10704.pdf

When you have a good talent model you will see how great and enjoyable the game is, and I can not stress this enough about how important this is. You REALLY have to be paranoid about your data when making such games. Period.

BK

Topic: Is anyone (like me) worried that..

If CPU teams don’t pay more than the estimated value for players, would that make the market better?

Topic: Is anyone (like me) worried that..

Well, I too have no problems making money in the club and last season I had something around there, and spent some of it, probably around 200M but it’s a bit silly. It is not about being able to make money, as all the seasoned managers know how to do that, but a new manager would have some problems entering the game and having a nice game experience. Now if you want to make a great team, your only chance is having 20 000 M or build your own team from free transferred youths, it would take 10 seasons but it can be done. The problem is you do not have that kind of money and while building your own team you have to take risks of getting bad results and getting fired on the process, and there you hand over a few seasons labor to someone else, and that for me is a game killer.

I think all the money would be just fine if every price/amount lost one 0. Mind that it costs still same amount of money to build stadiums, hire coaches, scouting etc. Is that right?

I don’t know about you guys but for me it has become a new type of game, just bank as much as possible while avoiding getting fired over the bad results. A new type of simulation, I stopped looking at the match results, or caring should I say.

BK

Topic: Is anyone (like me) worried that..

:(

Topic: Is anyone (like me) worried that..

I agree with Charles. There are only a few 90+ avr players left. In the old days you had 95 primary skill players with 95+ secondary skills. Now you it’s very tough to find such a player. The 100 primary skill players are also more scarce then before. It makes the game more realistic.

I think the stale marked is a result of this new skill balance. People don’t want to sell there good players because they can’t find a replacement. When you are able to convince them, you have to play way too much money. A problem created by the cpu transfers i think. They give unrealistic high amount of money for average players.

I think the admins must find a way to create a flow in players moving from one team to another. Contract clauses could be a start. Players who want to play games in stead of sitting on the bench; Players who want to play in another competition;… Managers would be forced to sell and buy players.

Topic: Is anyone (like me) worried that..

I have to agree with BK. It’s been nice that the CPU team starting buying players again but all it really did was drive up the market for players that aren’t all that great.
It’s still pretty tough to find that 90average player BK and consider this; prior to the changes made by the admins, there were a lot of 91+ average players. Now it seems to be less and less and generally speaking, players won’t develop past an average rating of perhaps 91 or 92? Back in teh day it was silly to see guys with 100average or 96 or 97 averages. So in that aspect, i think the admins have done a good job of trying to balance out top end talent. I also like the fact that there seems to be more of a random factor when it comes to player progression. Previously, the best players always came from the top 2-3 countries in the world based on their UEFA rankings. But as the admins have pointed out, there is a chance that a great player can be developed from one of the lower countries.

Personally, i think that the transfer market is back to becoming what it was… stale. And although i still appreciate being able to sell some young guys for a few million, it is becoming increasingly difficult to buy a good player at a good price. As of now, i think spending 100mil on an 87 average player is too much, but unfortunately that is the state the game is in right now. smaller teams don’t really have a chance to compete with that. I’m lucky enough that i’ve always been able to find a way of making money but only because i’ve stayed in higher ranked countries. If i were to take over a country with low ranking and low stadium, it would become a much tougher task to accomplish.

As BK said, the game does have its flaws, but it also has its strong points. I still enjoy finding players and developing them (even better if they come from my youth squad) but generally speaking, the game is still definitely linear.

Whats so tough to accomplish for the admins is finding a balance between maknig the transfer market enticing and fun, balanced with having a non linear player progression while making sure that small teams don’t get lost in the shuffle.

Definitely a tough task at and.

charles

Topic: Is anyone (like me) worried that..

Portuguese?

=P

Topic: Is anyone (like me) worried that..

the game is in a limbo state, and people would rather care making 500M on faulty logic in the game rather than play the game as it was supposed to be played?

Do you even remember what it was like playing such games?

Sure some of it was winning titles and competing with friends and some rivalry was interesting aspect of playing together. I would like to also think that some of the playing itself was being a good guy/friend/player/manager that would help a newbie and the community around the game play was as fun as playing the game itself. It used to be fun to talk about the game, no matter what the game was.

When I see all the fantasy transactions, people refusing to sell a player because they believe they can never find an equal replacement, I think this thing is doomed.

There are several major flaws in the game, other than that the game is amazing.
My suggestions would be:
- fix the economics or die, as simple as that, the game will lose it’s users if economics is not fixed. Period.

- get rid of all the thousands of the superstars, it’s not realistic/good for anything

- get rid of all the cheaters, allow logging in with facebook only or a validation routine validating that the player is a real one. If need be – get a payment for the validation routine.

You guys are thinking that all the fake and fictive millions in your club will make you great or give you some kind of edge in whatever you are pursuing but it will result in only one thing – killing the game.

Just my 2 cents..

Berhan

Topic: Cheating??????????

All done. Seven accounts banned, Heleno fired and reputation reduced. I haven’t had much time lately to read the forums and do the housekeeping here so I really appreciate all the help :-)

Cheers

Topic: Cheating??????????

Gabriel needs to confirm the conclusions we got, that requires time and he probably hasn’t got the time to do that… He has been around few times lately and for very short time so just be patient, the cheaters will be punished sooner or later…

Topic: Cheating??????????

My first post about this, was already one week ago, and nothing happen. So, sorry to the cheater.

Topic: Cheating??????????

Yes, but they use the holliday mode, just to make business, and ruin other teams. And they continue active. Nobody fire them. Cheating its not fair. I love this game, and hope that many people will enjoy this.

Topic: Cheating??????????

You go of holiday mode when you enter the game dimension, but you can set it back to holiday mode when you done your business. It’s good for ppl who don’t wanne watch every day in the game, but i think it’s being abused atm.

Topic: Cheating??????????

And the 4 managers that i mencioned that was all the time on vacation, but stil active in make transfers, still on vacation. But have 2 more that are on vacation, and used to negotiate with the same guy (the master mind). So, we have now 6 manages that transfered players with Heleno Ribeiro, that still all on vacation.