Yesterday I’ve finally started implementing the staff departments. Every team will have 3 departments: coaching, physio and scouting. The main idea is that you’ll have to spend some money every 3 turns on a department to keep it at the current level. How to increase a department level is a subject for another topic.

Two things to keep in mind:
we don’t want lots of teams with all departments at 100%, it should be hard, but not impossible, to achieve
if $100.000 is the cost to keep a 100% department, the cost of a 50% department won’t be $50.000, but less…the higher the department level, more money is needed to keep it.

My question for you here is how much do you think is a fair value to spend every 3 turns to keep 1 department at 100%? My first thought was $300.000, so $900.000 for all three, but I had some negative feedback from co-workers ;)

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In Portuguese:

Ontem finalmente comecei a implementar os departamentos da comissão técnica. Cada time terá 3 departamentos: treinadores, fisioterapeutas e olheiros. A idéia prinicpal é que você terá que gastar algum dinheiro a cada 3 turnos em um departamento para mantê-lo no nível atual. Como aumentar o nível de um departamento é um assunto para outro tópico.

Duas coisas para se ter em mente:
1) nós não queremos muitos times com todos os departamentos em 100%, deve ser difícil, mas não impossível de conseguir
2) se $100.000 é o custo para manter um departamento em 100%, o custo para um departamento em 50% não será $50.000, será menos…quanto mais alto o nível do departamento, mais dinheiro é necessário para mantê-lo.

Minha pergunta para vocês aqui é quanto vocês acham ser um valor justo para se gastar a cada 3 turnos para manter 1 departamento em 100%? Meu primeiro pensamento foi $300.000, logo $900.000 por todos os três, mas tive um feedback negativo dos meus colegas de trabalho ;)

Maybe $ 900.000 is actually a bit much. I would say at least $200.000 for each department, so $600.000 in total. A team must be able to keep at least 1 department at 100%, but not to keep all 3 of them at 100%.

I also think managers will choose for the coach department to spend money on. Scouting isn’t necessary when you look for players yourself and physio is not that important because the injuries are not that long right now.

everyone is rich around here :) I guess $100.00 for each department would be nice.

Bom tenho duas coisas que para mim são importantes.

Primeiro: Deveria ser valores diferentes para cada divisão.

Segundo: $300 mil para cada departamento acho muito alto, porque para times menores é mais dificil arrecadar tanto dinheiro. e teria desvantagem.

Bom é isso.

I guess this is not a kid game, and much of manager here works in real life. If the system became very complicated as I think it is going to be, too many of player will give up.
I just don’t know how was ManagerSim but I know that it was a complete but more complicated.
About the value, I think sometinhg like 50 to 150.000 for the 3 entire 3 turns would be great!
Well, just think of that, its only an opinion!
Regards
Stramazi

Don’t worry Stramazi, we’ll do our best to keep it simple, the departments are only going to help you in improving your players, recovering injured players faster, finding good players to buy or loan, analyzing your players potential. The users will have a few new options but they’re not supposed to be complex or take much play time. And also we can always go back and simplify things if you guys feel it’s becoming unecessarily complex :D

Cheers!

Actually I don’t think $300.000 for each is too much. I think it would be appropriate. We have too see that this means perfection :-).

I think it is also very important to see how much you’ll pay for just 50%, for instance.

900.000 in total seems a bit high I’d say 200.000 for each, so 600.000 as a total would be more reasonable

I think that 200k for each would be great.

Personally I think the coaching is a waste of time. If you’re going to have to pay serious money for scouting then most people won’t bother as they can just search for players themselves.
As for coaching and physio, I would be in favour of keeping it fairly high so that most teams wouldn’t keep them both at 100%, they would have to choose where to spend their money most effectively. Maybe start at 200,000 each and see how it works out?
How about varying the maximum amount needed based on the size of the squad? This would encourage managers to sell players to keep a smaller squad which wouldn’t be so expensive to maintain, and might spice up the transfer market a little?

I’m not very fond of the “departments idea”. I stopped playing Championship Manager because of its complexity…
So, in the matter being discussed, I abstain.

Just a few comments:

>>coaches: used to make players improve faster and a little beyond their current limits (probably no action taken from managers, it will happen automatically based on the dept level)
>>scouts: used to find players AND to evaluate how much a player still has to improve (this might encourage investments in scouting dept)
>>physios: faster healing from injuries and reduced chance of becoming injured (to encourage the use of physios we have the fact that injuries may happen during training and keepers may become injured)

@nsg1974: About the varying maximum based on the squad size, I liked that, we may discuss maximum variations later, for this topic’s question let’s consider the amount necessary in the worst case :D

@Henrique: I’ve also stopped playing CM because of its complexity so don’t expect it to be similar in any way…and if it does please tell us! ;)

200k for each department

I’ll be short I promise…
I believe to understand why scouts will evaluate our own squad, so scouts can value something, but I don’t see any logic in it! Coaches should do it, and should be more expensive too…
I totally agree with luís and henrique, 100% is perfection and requires loads of money, the game must remain KISS.
So, about costs, to me scouts should be less expensive and more generaly available to every 1st 2nd division team, the hard part is to acquire them and no scout will solve that. 100K
Physios at 100% for 300K is at reason! My perspective is to avoid top departments to everyone for no more than short periods.
Finally coaches, they should also evaluate the squad, be more expensive… 500K would sound fair to me.
I am sure even at 900K that managers exist to pay this amount! Not me for sure…
One thing worries me, will players still have limits? I know they had, with coaches will the biggest clubs appear with all players around 90-100 skills?
Cheers

@Hugo: nice suggestion, I’ll probably make scouting cheaper than coaching…it is also an interesting option for teams with less money, to invest on scouting to find good players to buy or loan. About skill limits, average players won’t become superstars because of coaches, the ideia is that they will help some players go a little further…not all players, and less developed skills will probably tend to have a greater extra development than high skills…for example, a 90 attacker with 60 in speed could become a 91 attacker with 70 speed with coaching…these numbers are just to give you an idea, I’ve not came up with any kind of formula yet :)

cara… 300k por departamento é muito caro.

eu não pagaria isso nem pelos 3 departamentos, quanto mais por um só. meu time não custa isso! a não ser que essa nova despesa seja compensada pelo aumento ou por alguma nova fonte de renda, o investimento não vale a pena.

mesmo a melhora na qualidade dos jogadores não traria tanto retorno financeiro, já que o mercado de compra e venda de jogadores vai ficar deprimido mais uma vez já com a criação dessa nova despesa mensal. isso já aconteceu na época da diminuição dos estádios e pode acontecer outra vez.

claro, um departamento top pode custar mais caro, mas deveria ser possível manter departamentos bons por um preço razoável. talvez 100k/tick pelos três.

uma pergunta… teremos que contratar os profissionais do departamento ou apenas investir neles?

abraços!

@Rafael: apenas investir nos departamentos, não haverá contratação de profissionais. Quanto a economia, sabemos que precisamos tomar alguns cuidados pra não desbalancear o jogo, mas o feedback dos usuários é sempre importante :)

In English: Rafael asked if we’ll need to hire coaches, scouts and physios or only invest in the departments, and the answer is only invest. He also made some comments about being careful with the economy as a new expense could be a bad thing to the players market, to which I replied saying we’re aware that we must take care to not unbalance the game, but the users feedback is always important.

I Agree with Rafael Pereira,

200K or 300K per turn is too high, if we don’t get more incomes from sponsors or other ways.
I reafirm that something between 50 to 150 K is enough! My team is not so big, so new player are alway bad players (till now, I’ve got only 2 boys playing in main team) and I have to apply expensive payment to win the competitions on transfers! This take all of my money, and I guess the others little teams too!

what is a scout suppose to do, does it find players that you specify.

Achei muito alto tbém o valor para cada departamento, a folha salarial do meu time é em torno de 540,000 que ja é um valor muito alto, então chegar a pagar por 3 departamentos 900,000 eu acho muito, na minha opinião 100,000 pelos 3 departamentos e um deles estando em 100% seria um preço mais justo.

espero ter ajudado,

abraços,
ps: se alguem puder traduzir pro inglês eu agradeço, meu inglês é quase zero… :P

Gabriel, I don’t know if you guys can do it, but at first I should say that this value, ath this moment, should be lower in medium than in fast. I say that because the medium player market is still weak and the only way to make money is spending a lot less money than you earn.

I have a big team and I spend only 160,000/week in wages. It’s not real paying to coaches+scouts+physios a lot more than you pay for players. Besides, if I earn in a very very good week only 800,000 (and I have a big stadium for the medium ticker and, as I’m in the fourth place of the game ranking on Brazil , I am probably earning a lot more in sponsors and products selling than the majority), how in the world could I spend 900,000/week or even 600,000?

Would it be possible to do a research in teams incomes and find out how much does the richer one earn? So, if we find out that this value is $1 million, than we could fix that, to have a department at 100% will cost 500.000 (50%).

PS: I stopped playing CM for the same reason.

I also hate very complex games, Rodrigo. The idea here is to have all ideas done in a simple way, so we can have a simple but fairly complete game. We really liked ManagerSim, so our plan is to have the good ideas they had there and improve whatever we can.

@Polat: yes, scouts are used to find players you specify, the way you specify the parameters is not defined yet

@Rodrigo: the largest amount I found a team has earned in 3 turns was 280,000 only considering merchandise, sponsorship, player wages and ground maintenance…if we add the stadium income this number can double. So per your suggestion we’d need something between 140,000 and 280,000 to have 1 department at 100%, not that different from the suggestions we have here. Let’s see how this poll ends, and as always we can change the way things work if we realize the values are not good :)

1st concrete suggestion

Teams will have 3 departments: coaching, scouting and physio. Each department will start at level 0, meaning they’re useless and cost nothing. Departments can be improved until level 10 and every improvement has a cost associated with it. The higher the department level higher is the maintenance cost, as follows.

Scouting
Level      Maintenance Cost      Cost for level improvement
   0            0                                                15,000
   1            1,500                                          23,000
   2            2,300                                          35,000
   3            3,500                                          52,000
   4            5,200                                          79,000
   5            7,900                                          110,000
   6            11,000                                        170,000
   7            17,000                                        260,000
   8            26,000                                        400,000
   9            40,000                                        600,000
   10          60,000                                        N/A

Physio
Level      Maintenance Cost      Cost for level improvement
   0            0                                                46,000
   1            4,600                                          70,000
   2            7,000                                          100,000
   3            10,000                                        150,000
   4            15,000                                        230,000
   5            23,000                                        350,000
   6            35,000                                        530,000
   7            53,000                                        800,000
   8            80,000                                        1,200,000
   9            120,000                                      1,800,000
   10          180,000                                      N/A

Coaching
Level      Maintenance Cost      Cost for level improvement
   0            0                                                78,000
   1            7,800                                          110,000
   2            11,000                                        170,000
   3            17,000                                        260,000
   4            26,000                                        390,000
   5            39,000                                        590,000
   6            59,000                                        880,000
   7            88,000                                        1,300,000
   8            130,000                                      2,000,000
   9            200,000                                      3,000,000
   10          300,000                                      N/A

Using these numbers you can see that all departments at level 10 would have a maintenance cost of 540,000, but with 105,000 you can have all 3 on level 6, which seems pretty reasonable, or even a level 8 coaching dept. for 130,000.

If you decide to downgrade a department you will receive back a percentage of the amount you paid to upgrade it, I was thinking of something around 25%. So let’s say you have a level 10 coaching department and wants to move it back to level 9, you’ll receive back 750,000 of the 3,000,000 you spent to upgrade it from 9 to 10.

If anybody feels totally uncomfortable with these numbers and idea please let us know. This is just a start point for me to implement it, we can adapt everything if it doesn’t work so well. By the way, sponsorships values will be raised a little bit, they’re too flat right now, you jump for example from something around 100,000 to something around 200,000 at once, I’ll make the intermediate values be used.

Cheers!

I like the idea. I’m not sure how it will work… maybe it might need to be “tweaked” a little as we go along… but you guys have been great about making changes. So, I’m all for trying it.

I liked the 10 level idea too

Already working on it, let’s see how it goes :-D

Agreed the 10 level idea is simple and does’nt complicate matters

Do you have to upgrade step by step or lets say jump from level 0 to 10?
3M is nothing for most of the teams and they will probably get level 10 right away.

I think it needs to be step by step. Also, once you ask for an upgrade it shouldn’t be done in one turn. It will not make sense. In 9 turns you moved from a team with no department to a 100% one. It should take some turns to do it. Maybe incremental.

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