Well, that happens if the team loaning the player can’t keep the minimum coaching level. Managers loaning players need to remember that. I believe we’ll have to request slightly lower coach levels when loaning out players. I understand the average coaching level may be reduced with the new economy, but we are already planning changes to compensate that.

One suggestion for next season: board points to increase the youth team. The more points you give to the youth, the higher is the probability of a reasonable good player to appear. Also provide a greater improvement with matches (including friendlies).

yeh how often the youth develop is really poor right now even with 10 coaching.
i agree with jorge

“yeh how often the youth develop is really poor right now even”. Dude seriously? Explain the words ‘right now’ for me please since I’m lost. You make it sound there has been some kind of change in youth development?

Now I don’t want to pull rank here, but I have these 2 red words under my name saying ‘Game Master’. TRUST ME when i tell you, that players have increased the same way for the past 50 seasons. NOTHING WAS CHANGED. There is not a mass conspiracy with your team Davison. It’s not like players with you increase less then with other teams. I know it’s hard to believe, I know you pointed out time and time again players don’t increase wityh your team like they do in other teams, but that’s just not true.

Let me explain the system 1 more time. With coaching 10 a player needs 15 xp points to increase. You get 1 for a friendly, 3 for an official, 4 for en EL game and 5 for a CL game. He can increase between 1-6 stats each time he get’s to 15 points.

This is what I pointed out in on other replies of mine to your posts. This is not called random. That’s the only ‘downside’ of ruby. It’s all pretty basic. I know exactly when a player is going to increase and if you have the know how, you could even backtrack how much he has already increased. Thus making youths still very predictable, something Managersim didn’t have at all. The only thing random about it all is, you don’t know which stats would increase and you don’t know how much in total he will increase. So a player could get a nice amount of total stats, but if he increases in the ‘wrong’ primary or secondary stats he might not be as usefull. Thus I said being able to train specific stats would take out the last randomness this game even has.

since when did making a statement on how poor youth development model is become you reading way to much into it 3+3+3+3= 12 pts for 4 matches and you still havnt even meet the fucking 1 attribute point gained.

its shite it has been this way. a youth player should gain experience points every game, as they grow older the frequency should drop. simple yet logic seems lost

and this whole thing about making youth unpredictable fine but a focused training should be up to the manager. as gabriel stated a focus option in training would suffice. Offensive or defensive.

keep attribute area random i dont mind that, the frequency of which they gain them is completely unrealistic. if you focus on offense then some offensive area will improve randomyl as with defense ect
the whole system isnt good enough. esp if player growth completely ends at 25 which in its self is unrealistic.

with that said, look how many people have left this game, and tell me im wrong. this games in decline and i hope that the positive measures are taken to fix it.
my way of helping is applying my solid ideas. its ok to disagree with me but facts dont lie no more excitement in the game

ps when i say right now i mean its been shite for a long time including currently.

hope that helps

Let me comment on some things here.

That’s correct. That is indeed 12 points, I said you needed 15, so you need 5 official matches. Not sure what you want to gain with this statement. According to this logic you could have also said something like 1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1 = 14 points for 14 friendlies and you still don’t gain 1 attribute. Yes that would have also been true. Like I said it’s 15 points, those are the facts.

esp if player growth completely ends at 25 which in its self is unrealistic.
This is also not true. A player will stop growing when the predetermined amount of stats he was allowed to gain is reached. So, this meens if he hasn’t unlocked all his stats, he will keep on increasing untill 30 years of age. When he hits 31, then yes….. he will not increase anymore, even if he did not unlock all the stats he was allowed to unluck. From personal experience I can say that it’s really not hard to make sure a player has unlocked all his stats at the age of 24.

You keep talking about having a realistic game, but you need to realize it’s pretty darn hard. Also, trying to make it very realistic wouldn’t necessarily improve the gaming experience.

So, to conclude, everyone is allowed to comment on the game, either criticise certain aspects or suggest improvements, that’s all good. I think we all respect your suggestion to the game. Perhaps development indeed could be changed. Personally I wouldn’t mind a player growing faster as well. However I don’t think it’s helping rubysoccer if you simply state things that are not correct. That’s just my opinion….

You guys need to get laid (and I do not mean with each other but it’s really up to you). :)

No matter how you feel about the things being the way they are, it is what it is, you have to deal with it!

Good/Bad labels can be very biased depending on your own view on things, but more important is to think in terms of “Right” and “Wrong” in order to create a better game.

Davison, if you have a suggestion to a better youth system, put it in the suggestions, and see how many will like it, if majority of players do, developers may do it. Or not. That is the reality, no need to get upset with things not working as imagined (by you).
If you do absolutely want that things will work as YOU suggest and only like that, start making an own game, make the best manager game, and I will try and pay for it if I like it. I am sure others will too.

Sly, I am not sure how much insight of the game you have, and I mean on the bellow-the-hood stuff, like player entities, formulas, calculations, how stuff really work, but if you do know that, perhaps tat information should be educated to all somehow, maybe we need a wiki page about it? You sound like the right guy to author such a page if you’d like to do it of course.

Having said all that, I agree to some of the criticism because it’s based on not knowing how the game really works. An other way of looking at this is: “Do I really want to know how many xp points every turn gives and so on?” Is this a management game or an adventure game? I am sure some people would like to count how many xp points they got on each player and turn, some have their own excel-sheets to calculate stuff, and that is really cool.
I think also the question that bugs me is: can I play the game optimally without having to do all that xp calculations on excel and so on.

THIS is really interesting to me, because, aligning to one of my suggestions previously, my answer would be NO, you can not get the optimal results (in this case) for your youths, without doing that EXTRA research. So people doing that are perhaps being rewarded for their extra work already.
By giving equally to all, are we saying that all people should get the best results for just logging into the game?
I still think there should be different kinds of rewards depending on HOW you play the game.

Sorry, too much, I guess this should go into suggestions section, but I am sure no one reads this long texts, and now I have worked my keyboard for a day. :)

/BK

you are completely missing every point so im done, no use explaining playing 5 matches for 1 attribute is stupid. even more so considering the transfer market is useless.

your lucky to get your player into the 90’s even if you do that player plays like shit. as berhan mentioned in another thread attributes are flawed. why have them if they obviously mean nothing also. dont bother with another retort. you dont have one. the game speaks for itself ZzzzzZZzzzZzzz

@BK: My insights in the game are the same as everyone elses. I’ve learned this game by playing and paying attention to what happens. All other know how besides playing and paying attention comes from the forum posts from gabriel about the game and from reading the wiki. Player development can be found here: http://www.rubysoccer.com/mediawiki/index.php/Players_Evolution. I

@Davison:‘your lucky to get your player into the 90’s even if you do that player plays like shit’ ……

Ok, not sure how you come to this conclusion. You know there is no morale. It’s all very basic. They don’t have good day’s or bad day’s. A player won’t just ‘play shit’ because he didn’t get enough sleep. He will always do the same thing. Trust me when I tell you, that if you have a team full of players with 90 stats, you will be able to win the league, the cup and the CL.

All I can say is, pay attention to Manchester United in div1. I’ll show you how ‘easy’ it can be to turn a team around in a short amount of time. Remember, I work with the same economy and the same rules that apply to you. I’ll see you next season in the EPL…..

so full of shit its not even funny. well the rules and conditions you speak of dont apply to this team. i had a great team full of 95’s and it ment fuck all finished low. my tactics werent the problem, the players would play well 7-10 then next game play like 5-6 then 7’s ect inconsistant shite. and it didnt even matter who we were playing. beating the eventural league winners every season yet losing to shitty teams with no managers ? whos team was a load of shit ? sly stop defending the game. its fucked. the attributes mean nothing, transfer market is dead, money means nothing now, there literally zero managing done now other than subs, scheduling friendlies, watching youth play every game and not gain shit with 10 coaching, the list is continuous. i appreciate the work that went into this game i really do. however how long does it take to improve this game. i dont see much improvements 2-3 max since when i started is this good enough ? i dont know maybe im expecting too much ? maybe i see the fucking full potential in this game and it pisses me off that things spoken about YEARS AGO still have yet to be fixed, upgraded ect ect ect ect ect

if your going to do something, do right. otherwise dont bother. im a loyal person, i dont like watching shit Die due to inaction or someones disagreement about fairness. i for one couldnt give a fuck about fairness. managers make thier own fairness which the options ive proposed. you either utilize them right or not.

whats not fair is the current pile of shit state this game is in

whats not fait is having 400m in the bank being fked off to oblivion

whats not fair is having 95 attribute team not even getting into champ league or europe.

whats not fair is shit 80 avg teams beating me when thier players are piles of piss

why am i even repeating my self. every fucking year since this shit started. same ol shit

im sorry for my rant but its how i feel

I’ll reply in a PM :). Let me finish lunch first :)

I can understand some of the criticism made about the players and performance, as I mentioned earlier failing to understand how a computer managed player is the top scorer, while there are at least 20 better strikers than him, while playing in a mid-table team.

Nowadays everyone has at least 1 95+ striker, so someone has to score goals of course. Tactics is a bit too random in my opinion but maybe I am not paying enough attention to HOME GAME advantages. Maybe I should play with different team/tactics depending on the opposition instead of having one setup for all.

I don’t know, but understand the frustration. We all have been there.

/BK

Davison, do you imply that there aren’t even chances for everyone?

Davison, are there any good players at all? You seem to thin they’re all garbage. Ever think maybe just yours are “piles of piss” seeing as how you religiously finish midtable or worse?

Regarding player game ratings.

I think its normal that players don’t ALWAYS play up to their ratings. IMO its a normal occurrence in ANY sport.
I think the biggest thing is to check player stats on a season to season basis. However, we also have to take into consideration how our tactics are created when it comes time to assessing a players game rating.
I’ll give you my tactics as an example.

Strikers play pretty well in my tactics. But only if they play center. If they play LC or RC, they usually have a lower rating. (less than 6). This is why i put my best striker at center and not on the wing. I know that even if i have my best striker on LC or RC, they might score more goals, but their game rating will still be lower than the center playing striker.
Mids that play ANY center position, usually play between 5 and 6.
Mids that play the wings (L or R only) usually player a bit higher than my center mids.
Defense typically play around 5-6 except for my DC+1 who usually player a bit better than the rest.

I’ve noticed this about the current tactic i’m using.
I also have a 2nd, center-concentrated tactic. With this tactic, the above stats differ.

Strikers usually play center, and usually play around 7.
Mids, all play LC,C or RC, usually play a lot stronger (around 7 or more)
Defense player about the same.

IMO, player ratings DO matter in how well a player plays, but i think tactics really make or break how well a player will play during the course of a season…

Just like in real life, its not just how talented a player is, its also how they are used. this is where tactics come into play. No sense in using a high shooting mid in the defensemid position if his tackle is shite…

I dont know if this is correct but I’ve been playing with the logic that player ratings are based on the number of attempts and successful tackles, passes, shots, goals, cards, etc… You can find all that information in the table bellow the match report (I pay much more attention to those then the first). The logic can be improved it is certain, but still, with no other personality tipe factor in place you must know all that matters are skills, stamina, tactics and a random factor you cant influence. You take two players with the same skills, in the same position with the same tactics and they will do the same AVERAGE match rating (with average you eliminate the random factor).

About Davison claims, we all know how this goes so there’s no point trying to explain him why he’s wrong, I just hope the Developers have more patience than the most people and make no care of what he says…

Cheers

Sorry for the double post but Berhan theserves an anwser here:

“I think also the question that bugs me is: can I play the game optimally without having to do all that xp calculations on excel and so on.”

I consider myself to have a nice carear here in RS, I never used those calculations or excel. I also consider myself a good talent finder, the two things I know about this in the game are:
1 – player improvement is incertain
2 – the best a player is when he starts the more hods he becomes great

knowing that you can make some other conclusions, for example:
- If you have 1 nice skilled “starter” you have some probability he becomes great (I have no idea how much that is)
- If you have 30 nice skilled “starters” you have a higher probability one of them becomes great

Hope it was helpful :D

I agree filipe, but just to be certain…

in my opinion, before hand, if you had a player with 67AVR starting. This player, would surely become at least 87avr, with a little luck, he will grow more.
Now, i get the feeling that player progression is more random and that a 67avr player won’t necessarily become an 87avr player. Perhaps only an 85 or 86avr player.
Has anyone been tracking this to see if its true?

I have an excel sheet which i essentially use to dump player ratings when they come out of my academy and i’ve noticed a trend more recently where although a player is hammered in friendlies and officials, they don’t necessarily reach their potential. Again, perhaps i haven’t been subbing my players at the 55th minute mark and have been screwing up somewhere…

Again, it just seems to be that before it used to be “67AVR player starting is equal to or better than 87aVr player when fully grown”

one shouldnt have to use a outside program to play this game

these things should be posted to the manager. next to the player or a whole new window tab in team. labeld Exp gain using a bar system which shows it at what % playerx has gained so much this season for example playerx [xxxxxxxxx/ ] +80% gained or even instead of % actually say player x gained “x” amount of points so far.

im not about to jump on excell and spend way to much time on this game. shouldnt have to. managers need more tools and options

If you use team player list plus addon in firefox you know when your player is done for the season, no need for excel.

@Charles, isn’t that just bad luck on your side?

@Davison: Cool i understand what you mean, but just to be clear, i dont manipulate the excel file, its just a dumping ground for me to keep track of a players starting average and stats :)
(lets agree that the players starting value doesnt mean shit necessarily)

also, if what you propose is implemented, won’t it take away a bit from what this game and managersim before it is? Won’t it just become a simple boring game about how long it takes for you to make your player reach the next level? Won’t it take the fun out of knowing if that player of your will actually hit his full potential? Won’t you find it boring to know exactly when a player is done growing for that particular season? This is something that is along the lines of “active” vs “passive” managers in my opinion.

Do you have ulysses script installed by the way Marc? It’s a great tool which’ll allow you to track how often your player stats go up… this tool is indispensable to me so i can keep track of a player who has grown during the season. if you say “i dont want a 3rd party script ruining the game for me” well then this is what you are suggesting (regarding keeping track of player XP). Actually, if the admins embed ulysses script within the game, it would actually make me happy (no more need for the script itself) and it would also curb some of your demands in a way that it would allow you to see if a player has stopped growing during that season…

if admins can respond to this question: is there a reason why ulysses script was never implemented in the game?

@Vaughn: ya it might be :/

finding the balance then so far its lopsided towards not good enough :)

and yes im saying impliment that script into the game so we dont need programs but we can keep track of it ingame then

Darren Bartholomew played 27 friendlys, no improvement.
Paul Johnson played 15 games, no improvement.
Frazer Neal played 25 games, no improvement.
Steve Nightingale played 27 friendlys, he improved at game 27…????

They have played full 90 minutes, so why are they not improving.
They are all youth players, coaching 10

^{^}^^

Well, I think I mentioned this to the developers or the forums, I am not really sure, but here it goes.

The game would benefit from having paid service options (perhaps through an app), letting you scout a player and see what the maximum potential is.

Another “premium package” would allow you to chose what areas (on youths) to concentrate developing, so they develop the skills that is important for them.

I had a whole bunch of those suggestions, but if you haven’t seen those then those were private mails with the developers for a possible co-operation deal.

Well, a thing to consider anyway.

/BK

Definitely a way to generate revenue BK but considering the game is completely free now, i’m not so sure admins would want to implement it prior to the game going “gold” and being ready to become a paid subscription type of game. but in the event that that happens, i think the admins are clever enough to introduce that kind of pay system. :)

Charles, maybe but I am sure people would want to try to spy/scout on players, it would generate money..

/BK

I’ll not say too much, I’m on vacations :-)

The scripts from Ulisses weren’t added just because, we simply trusted that those interested in that information would simply use the scripts and we focused on other things. I don’t mind including them in the future and I don’t think Danilo would mind either.

Now, about the whole player development system, I agree it is time for a re-design and that’s likely to be the next big thing to happen. Me and Danilo have worked on a new model but to be honest recently I have been thinking and having doubts that the changes are good enough. Anyway, I will discuss that with him when I’m back, but if you guys have good suggestions feel free to post them, as usual.

Cheers

Gabriel, the economy changes are great, with adjusted player development you can take the game to the next level.

For the player development, make sure you have a solid model, so we do not end up with superstars roaming around.
Take under consideration the “star” element ManagerSim had, it was a nice feature.
Really think about the players as real people, do they like their state at the moment?
When not played for several games (if player thinks they deserve a regular team place), the morale could go down a lot and when reached a “break point” the player can stop developing, but perhaps perform great. Most people would stop analyzing here, I think you need to analyze further and see how does the manager handle this performance.
If the player is still ignored and not given what he thinks he deserves then, he should really be unhappy and so on.

If you manage to do this right, guys – it could really be awesome game.

I also have some other suggestions about the talent pool in any given game world. I think that should be directly related to the number of real managers playing the game. Keeping it closed like that you will assure the hardware value of the game world not being devalued by having too many of the same players/entity.

How does that work?
New star player will appear when an old star is gone from the system (taking his place).
Who should get this player then (initially, later on anyone with the right money will be able to buy of course)?
I think there needs to be internal lists of rankings for managers that are not visible on the page but read by the game engine to analyze who the best youth-developing manager is.
There could be points unlocked for doing different “mission”.
For example some managers will develop a lot of own players and then keep them the whole career in the club, that can be awarded.
Others will develop youths, then sell them for the economy alone, that could also be awarded but by different measures and rewards.
Some will bring back the player they sold (youth from own club) and let them finish their career in the mother club, that could be rewarded.
And so on. Many rewards unlocked when you do different things, all measurable.

Other things:
- when managers look at a player profile, the more managers look at the player , it should be measured, it could mean a a player is popular, then the player would more likely “grow” star status.

Things like measuring, what a manager does when he logs into the game first, last before logging out, most often, least often, then measure everything to find out what manager focuses on – this really should be kept secret and never told managers that is active though, or it will spoil the fun.

Augmented reality/geolocation aspect, we all are placed in different places around the world. It would be really cool if say you were watching a real life game, in say Barcelona. Then the game could (not too often though) give you perhaps an e-mail from the scout pointing to the possible star player in Barcelona team, that is “mysteriously” put on sale.

I know this is a “multi-player” game but I think it would benefit from considering it as a MMOG really, where you develop your skill-set by playing the way you play, game measuring your actions and triggering rewards after a set scenario is played and objective fulfilled, WITHOUT calling it mission and so on, all done in the background that is.

/BK