Sheffield United – Cardiff City 5-0

4-2-4 formation 3-5-2
50% possession 50%
20 shots 17
17 shots on target 14
88% accurrate passes 93%
69% effective tackles 53%
1 corners 4
5 offsides 1
6 fouls 8

http://www.rubysoccer.com/game/match_report/1561116

Looking at the stats, it seems quite a balanced game and that makes score looking a bit out of place, but that’s far from being my problem.

It’s the second season SU plays with 2 defenders as wingbacks in midfield, which is the case with their 2 mids in the 4-2-4 formation, Foreman and Watts respectively.
From the tactic, the 2 mids/wingbacks, pull inside the center whenever the opposition gets the ball. From there, one of the 6 D’s makes a tackle, collects the ball, huffs it forward to one of the 4 strikers, who then dribbles all the opposition defense and their grandmas goes to score with a knife in butter type of ease.
Three simple steps
Tackle – Huff forward – Run & Score

But there’s more to the genius behind such simplicity: Apperantly, because the opposing team has practically no midfielders, my three moronic defenders, finding the empty midfield in front of them, forget their defending duties (Despite having 4 strikers to watch for) and rush forward, leaving my own half at the mercy of the opposing strikers. It’s enough to see that each of my defenders have made at least on shot on goal, and basically accounting for half the shots my defenders have made all season.

Purely from a tactical standpoint, we have a 6-0-4 formation obliterating a 3-5-2 formation. And Cardiff has (to my understanding)one of the top midfield in the world. In an Ollie and Benjie fashion, the Cardiff midfield gets annihilated by simply passing the ball “over” the midfiel

Anyway, some interesting technicalities.
-If I am not wrong the Ds playing as Ms, lose about 3 pts per skill, which is a lot:
Original Foreman Skills 82 75 73 87 89 74 84 Avg 81
Playing in midfield Skll 79 72 70 84 86 71 81 Avg 78

Original Watts Skills 91 69 73 86 91 89 90 Avg 87
Playing in Midfield Skll 88 66 70 83 88 86 87 Avg 84

-Both players are horrible passers
-Only Watts has any value as a tackler, Foreman is simply a mediocre player on all accounts
-Indeed, from personal stats, Foreman has only one successful tackle to account for on two attempts. No passing, no shooting. Basically, Foreman was not on the pitch, meaning I lost 5-0 to a 10 men team.
-There’s a equal possession even though Cardiff is by far a better passing team, with an average of 10 passing pts higher (A universe away), but most importantly, they have no midfield.

So, I am a bit baffled.
This is not RL, far from it, but are we not trying to emulate as much as possible the RL game?
Once we just concentrate on the fact that this is the game, and numbers are the rule, then:

WHAT HAPPENED?
BECAUSE
IT SHOULDN’T HAVE HAPPENED!!!

Losing against a team that is might inferior in all but two skills: Keeping and tackle (by 3 pts)
Against a team that practically had only 10 players on the pitch.

Why am I playing this game, if there are no rules to it, no principles on which to rely on? Of course i can put a different tactic to beat that same Sheffield team tmrw, but the point is that, simple as the air I breath, that that tactic had no point enjoying and sort of success, let a alone a 5-0.

It is tiresome dealing with such randomness, and that is a huge understatement.
The way I see it:
- The tactic used could be quite sound with the right players. It’s not the case with SU, with those two Ds completely out of sorts, and a shitty team overall!
- In addition, 424 such as United’s is not a possession tactic, the stats are again out of sorts. (this a more complex argument, but it’s too friggin obvious in this case)

When I saw the result I though you had given up the cup to fight for the league :P
The result is quite unrealistic and this 4-2-4 tactic may be usefull for the admins to improve the game engine in the future but there are some factors to be considered to explain the result… IMO still wont explain a 5 goals difference but that could be luck playing against you…

a) your keeper is not that great yet and, as all your team, suffers from the away disadvantage, IMO a weak keeper explains almost every weird result we see in the game, for a team to have consistent resusts in RS must have a really great keeper

b) passing skill has very low importance in the match engine, any team with 70 passing average can get a 90% passing accuracy so it explains how SU low passing defenders made so many good long passes.

c) the defenders playing as mids is something I’ve been using and getting good results too, usually I use DM or mids with great tackle but many defenders can play great too in home matches, that Jason Watts helped the defense a lot in the side where you had more attackers

d) 2 of the 4 SU’s strikers played -1 positions, they probably tackled your mids many times and you can see both made many successful tackles, as all his team did…

You are pretty correct in all your observation.
But that’s my point too, this are things that IMO should be fixed to give the game a more natural feel.

-We both love a high tackle team, but passing should matter as much, as should matter all other abilities involved in a player:
a look at the main stats for both teams on avg
Cardiff: 84.7 85.2 85.5
Sheffield: 87.7 75.0 81.7
Clearly there’s a world of difference between the two teams, and yet the least important ability to scoring has made all the difference. If we were to add the secondaries, then there won’t be any place for comparisons at all.

-The goalie is not that bad, but because of whatever calculations and type of shooting that dominates in the engine, he gets penalized on a single low ability. Again, too much imbalance. Also the revers could be said, where a good goalie would dominate absurdly, independently of the strikers he faces!

-It’s also amusing that 3 quality changes did nothing to alter the game even a bit.

-HOWEVER, the main problem here is not the technicalities above, but the very logic of the game:
1. Tactics wise, Sheffield should have suffered mightily, not dominate like it did. A long team, no midfield, 4 concentrated strikers and so on.
2. As I mentioned previously, the nonexistent role of Foreman was barely noticed on the pitch, which makes the high efficiency of Sheffield even more baffling. It’s a testimony of the one-dimensionality on which the engine bases its performance. Sheffield didn’t win on luck, it was an utter domination!!!

Well my over 31 team also didn’t dominated the game against him too, I though having more players in the center would make a diference but seems not, Grenoble on the other hand managed to get a good result with wing players, some of it probably due to SU stamina low levels after so many matches with the same squad…

Sorry but that’s kinda condescending towards Grenoble. You are selling him short. There is only 2 point stamina difference between your game and Grenoble his game. I doubt those 2 stamina points would make such an impact. Grenoble just outclassed Sheffield with his tactic. Perhaps the way Sheffields puts his players just works really well vs your 4-3-3 lineup. He might just avoid alot of confrontation with your superior players. Who knows……

Really? the French thing again? Neither I was condescending neither you need to defend or whatever you are doing every time someone talks about a French team… I know his tactic worked better than mine against SU, but the SU wing players have already a 3 points disadvantage for playing as mids, that could be even worse after a sequence of league, cup and uefa matches with the same players.

I’m a bit tired of you commenting all my posts as racists or whatever you are trying to make of them…

Good times!

Ya let’s not start a “he said this he said that” debate.

It’s easy to misconstrue stuff on boards.

Besides, game masters should stick together :)

I hate the French, especially that douche Charles…

At least the French didn’t give us Celine Dion :(

lol martin had the same experence as me then with that guy. post a bid and then during wage negotiation he removes him from transfer ( has done that twice to me) then twice hes done the same on bids on my player. ill never do business with him agian

thanks Martin, now you set marc davison off…

sorry Marc, I am forever ashamed… please remove me from this sorry excuse of a life i call Ruby and make all my pain go away… :)

Haha! Ooops, i didin’t mean for no drama I just like being rude.

Charles is alright “ish” even though he’s french.

Hey guys! Let’s return to the topic’s subject, shall we? ;-)
Yeah, well, we know our match engine is not as close to real life as it should be. Over time people have learned to play with its subtleties and use tactics to overcome stronger oppositions in ways that would never happen in real life, this is a good example.

The way the match engine works, as you may know, is by simulating the whole match, every pass, shot, tackle and player movement. This is all good stuff but makes it harder to implement a good player positioning system and harder to make the team play as a group rather than based on individual player decisions.

We, as developers, have 2 clear options here:

1) Invest some time improving the current match engine, try to make the players more aware of the tactics (of his own team and the opponent’s), let the current player positioning have more influence on player skills and decisions.
Pros: detailed level of simulation allowing the gathering of realistic (in the sense they represent what really happened) individual statistics and ratings, match replay availability, reuse of what we currently have designed
Cons: longer ticks, hard to influence players decisions based on the big picture in the current design

2) Rethink the way the match engine works, instead of simulating every detail we base the actions and results and statistics more on tactics, positioning, strategy and teamwork rather than every individual action.
Pros: faster ticks, high-level view of match simulation allowing us to easily introduce new strategies and tactical possibilities in the future, team statistics closer to real life
Cons: match replay would be replaced by text-based match highlights, rewrite of most of the current engine

My opinion? I’d go with option 2 if you ask me. Even if it takes longer to implement and test I like the idea of rewriting the current engine in a way that allows easier tactical improvements in the future. That’s what football is all about! At the same time I’m concerned some people could miss the match replay, even though this is not the focus in a football management game.

I’ve said too much, your turn now.

Booo at Charles and Martin!!!!! -—→ “input reason here…..”

@Gabriel

Is option 2 really an option? This game has been in development for 5+ years now (give or take) and we’ve been working with this engine all this time. Do you really have a structure in place to actually test out option 2?

I’m all up for trying new things, but right now tick times are about 15minutes (which i find is not long at all) and wouldn’t mind seeing longer tick times if it means more detailed game engine (closer to a true football match)

However, I do agree your opinion on option 2 “Even if it takes longer to implement and test I like the idea of rewriting the current engine in a way that allows easier tactical improvements in the future.” If it makes it easier to improve the game in the future, perhaps a longer to implement option is not a bad idea…

hey charles have some integrity and respect and you wouldnt be treated this way by me. you have time after time fed me over not just once not just twice a total of 3 times you dont care about building a friendship on here or doing the right thing, your just like every other manager.

the only manager on here that i trust is Brest

its funny that in turn Brest trusts me. I’ve made a lot of friendships here at Ruby Marc. I regularly exchange emails with many managers. (including you) Sometimes people change their minds, sometimes people can’t make up their minds and other times a series of unfortunate events occur and good deals are removed off the table. You make it sound as tough i’m always at fault. You had the chance to negotiate with my player for over a day and you didn’t close the deal. I sold a few other players in the meantime and decided to remove him off the list. Sorry but it happens sometimes.

Now reply what you think about Gabriels post. You are the most vocal about this game not being up to par, not being realistic, poor scouting, poor this poor that…

If you really want a good game, help out with the Ruby community by posting constructive criticism. I’m sure it’ll make everyones experience a lot funner and most importantly, you’ll get to contribute to how good Ruby can become.

charles

you have a bad habit screing people over and you have done it 3 times when buying players so w.e dude just dont bother bidding on my players and i wont bother on yours.

with that said the formations are retarded, when you field your formation non of them bare any resemblance to any real life formation.

players dont act realistic all group together like a congealing snowball

the formation screen isnt even symetrical. cant fire players when you want to, ( cheaters are allowed to manage top clubs after being banned yet i think there should be a rule that they must go to a div 2 team manditory and start off with a shit team. wheres the punishment ?

transfer prices are stupid

scouting is a waste of money most of the time

physio is ok but apparently ive been told by brest it is also a waste of money

stadium is a waste of investment

game results

the list is long

Don’t pull my words out of context :). I told you, for a team like yours who is not fighting for 3 titles (yet) that it is a waste of money. It would’t make such a huge difference for you if 1 avarage player was back quicker. You are still growing those superstars and don’t have them yet. Thus, I felt it was silly for a team like yours to have Physio 10 and called it a waste of money :).

Now, I believe I also said, that at times when a crucial player get’s hurt and you need him back asap, you can upgrade to coaching 10 just for that 1 player. Then you can downgrade again when he’s back. I’m sure in the end it won’t cost that much more. Besides, it’s only fake money :)

I’ll e-mail you in game with some extra info.

I favour option 2.

option 2 is also my option im sure. let the personal attacks begin.

Davison the good thing seems to be that no one cares about what you think anymore, for much that we try to explain to you how much of those things work you simply prefer to assume they are all wrong because you can’t get good results of them… No solution will ever be good enough for you I’m afraid…

I have no preference, both seem fine to me and whatever the change is I’ll try to understand it and adapt to it, Davison will simply say it is bullshit.

fuck off filipe so its ok for you to talk shit to me lol always gotta bring in your lil digs just like other idiots on here stfu you look like a frog lol @ your facebook dont talk shit and you wouldnt have a problem with me. dont be mad because i have an opinion that differs to yours. and i think your advice was not asked for i dont care about your opinion either cos obviously your a fucking idiot

The 100 years war is back on between the England and France, I see!!! And as usual, those damned arrogant French have hijacked my ranting thread, because they are always so sure that their ranting is so much more lyrical :P

PS: Charles is French of “Canadien” origin. That alone would make any decent American cringe. Next thing you know, Charles might become the second worst thing to Satan in the Bible Belt. And soon enough, CNN would report of suspicious WMD in Charlestan. A Dutch humanist in the shape of Sly, would enter the scene on behalf of CharleStan to set things straight on the logic of the beloved Dutch multiculturalism that is about to sink Netherlands well below the sea level. But the Brits would have none of it and would send 00Davidson7 to punk the mood up and push the damn red button. Finally, the quiet German comes in and sets things straight by putting the Brits and the French in their place. The Germans are specialists in law and order, let’s remember how they set the old bitch (Europe) straight not once by twice. But this time, they will get a tad smarter and avoid those Red Russians! Meanwhile, in the background, the Turks are on the rise! The stockexchanges ring their closing bells and Facebook has gotten greener and Steve Jobs mighty richer (and a heck more philosophical). :P

So, back to the topic.
It would be sad to lose the replay, but if it is replaced by detailed commentary replay, then why not. Option 2 seems indeed more interesting as opposed to single variables that cause too much imbalance in the current state. If more emphasis can be put on tactics and overall quality of the team.

The current engine efficiency can be defined by a simple statement: Tackle and shoot vs Speedy Keeper.
I don’t know how long will take for a different structure to be implemented, and maybe it’s not worth the time. at the end of the day it’s only two people taking care of business, who also have to deal with RL issues, just like the rest of us.

I would say that improvements are in order. How they come about, it’s up to the developers! As Felipe said earlier, we have all adapted and still manage to enjoy this game. I’m sure we will adapt even in the future :)

Option 2 is the ONLY way to go.
But it has to go with some other changes so it makes it all so much more logical.
It has to be done together with changes to how players develop.

Instead of having maximum possible skill, there are other ways to do it, I’ll mention it to the developers next time.

BK

Option 2!!

(Viva La France)

Henry – I am Canadian!!

Just to be precise, I am a Canadian of French/Armenian origins. Pretty much all of what Dhimitri said offended me! :P

In all seriousness, Marc please relax man. I asked you to give constructive criticism and you’re taking a “bashing” tone once again. I guess there’s no point beating the topic of your behavior anymore as it seems most have given up on trying to be nice to you.

Like Filipe said, the game is what it is. It’s fine to complain about it if there are things you think should be changed. but expecting the amount of changes you complain about in a small period of time is unrealistic. (even if you have been complaining for a long time, no pun intended on you, i agree some things about this game needs to change) Besides, you always have to take into consideration the big picture. If you change one thing, it might break other things.

I think both Danilo and Gabriel usually have an easier time implementing extra features that won’t affect others. This way we get extra stuff while they are working on longer projects (improvements). We have to be patient with these guys, there’s really no point forcing them into doing anything because in the end this is a free game and it is still in development stage. We don’t want to push the devs away by being pricks and demanding change. Sometimes things need to take their natural path towards maturity. I’m pretty sure that is how SS/MS was built, with time and paying great attention to detail.

For the record, i’m open to ANY change that would be implemented.

Lastly, @Davison, good delivery or not, you sure as heck know how to get people involved in hot topics, it bodes well for the future of RS.

I’m ok with any changes made what so ever. As long as we are allowed to know what the exact changes are and atleast some effects. This way I and the rest can readup about it and start learning how to adapt to it.

@Davison: You know you can always e-mail me with questions. Try for future refence to be a little bit more constructive. It’s easy to complain about everything. Heck, I like doing it aswell. I get those silly losses aswell, where I’m clueless as to how the hell I lost. I usually think……shit happens. It will happen to others aswell, so in the end we all suffer from it. It doesn’t help to just complain about it. Try to suggest some solutions for certain situation. Like you did about the cheaters. Personally I would never let a fired manager be able to manage a top team which opend up. I must admit I liked your suggestion about letting them only be able to apply to div2 teams. Try to keep that up. Give suggestions and solutions instead of criticism and complaints.

On a side note, it’s nice to know Gabriel and Danilo are still working on it, but like charles said….it’s a free game. They do this stuff in there spare time and we need to respect that.

Keep up the good work Gabriel and Danilo!!


P.s.: If you touch france….you touch me :). Be warned about mentioning anything france related :).